River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement – Traffic Study
Over the past few months my esteemed Square Lake neighbor and May Township Planning Commission Alternate Member, Ted Nesse, and I have been working strategically with the May Township Board on Oldfield and Ostlund roadway issues, including speed controls, chemical application, and safety issues of interest to Square Lake Association members who have reached out to us.
One of the positive outcomes of these discussions is a new Traffic Study, entitled Wilder Conservancy Study, dated January 14, 2022, that was recently completed by Mark Erichson, PE, Director of Municipal Program Delivery, WSB (www.wsbeng.com).
For those of you who travel Oldfield and Ostlund Trail, you may be interested in skimming selected emails below for background, and clicking the link above to read the new Traffic Study.
Please contact jim.seidl@legalresearch.com with your questions or comments.
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From: Jim Seidl <Jim.Seidl@LegalResearch.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2021 11:51 AM
To: John Adams; John Pazlar; Steve Magner
Subject: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement: Comments & Recommendations
Good morning, John, John and Steve.
Since sending my email below dated June 21 to John Pazlar and Dave Snyder, I reached out to a few of my neighbors about the incident, and received many constructive comments and suggestions in response.
Linda has informed me of your meeting on July 1. As Thursday is a business travel day for me, I may not be able to join you, so offer some selected taxpayer-based insight and recommendations below, for your pre-meeting consideration:
1) Comments.
a) “So glad no one was hurt – this time.”
b) “I received chills reading your summary of events… Prayers for responsible corrective action.”
c) “I am glad I wasn’t walking at that time! I have not personally witnessed any near misses like that, but I have noticed excessive speed. I would think the absolute minimum that should be done is to reduce the speed limit, but even that would not have helped in your situation.”
d) “We have experienced a LOT of fast drivers down Oldfield…We run, walk, walk dogs, and yes, our Boys bike frequently down Oldfield - and experience frequent careless drivers. Additionally, our drive is hidden from those coming from Square Lake as they crest the hill - and am constantly concerned about getting broadsided with a fast-moving vehicle - there have been a few close situations, but only takes once to be a disastrous one for my family.”
e) “I’m in support of any measures to slow traffic on Oldfield. At one point I brought my concern to May Township…and they said ‘you really don’t want a speed study’… I was fed up with the Board back then, and hoping things have changed or will change with new leadership.”
f) “I really wish we could do something about the speed on Oldfield and Ostlund. Drivers zoom by all the time! I think the folks that you encountered weren’t from Grove, but the MN Food Association. We see cars speed in there all the time. It is quite annoying. Let me know your thoughts on if there is anything we could bring to the Town Board. I’m all for asking for a speed study or requesting a reduction in the speed limit.”
g) “Let me know how the meeting goes. Happy to support as it has been an increasing issue with more traffic. 40 is too fast for the road… 25 so drivers go 30 would be my choice. Nason Hill going into Marine is 35 - and that is paved. A lot easier to control a skid or stop faster if needed on a paved road. Oldfield is 40 - I think it is 35 on the paved section, then 45 on Ostlund gravel to Paul - doesn’t make sense.”
h) “I was driving on a Woodbury Street last night and it had these type of traffic signs to encourage a low speed (See attached photo.) Speed bumps of course don't work well in the Midwest because of winter snow plows but these help to remind drivers that they are in a residential area and to proceed at a slow speed. I know a long shot but when paving improvements are made to Ostlund Trail perhaps they could consider to utilize these markers. There were three of those warning barriers within about one mile of that street, Steepleview Road, 55125. The snowplow drivers likely wish they were not there, but prevention of human casualties should rule.”
i) “I pray there is not the need for a serious injury or death that will get the Board to be responsible.”
j) “Thank God those boys were ok.”
2) Recommendations.
a) Listen to and accept the wise, expert, and well researched counsel of our Township Consultants – Mark Erichson, Dave Snyder, and Nate Sparks. They are the subject matter experts for whom we have paid for their recommendations on roads, land use planning, and legal risk.
b) Pave Ostlund Trail, a road that was not designed for the traffic River Grove is generating, according to our experts and those of us who travel it 365 days a year and spend thousands per year on car repairs because of pot hole, paint, and chemical damage.
c) Reduce the speed limit to 25 MPH on gravel portions of Oldfield and Ostlund.
d) Enforce the reduced speed limit.
e) Pilot various types of speed signage, including the road-based sign post photographed above.
f) Prohibit River Grove and MN Food Association from using Oldfield, and subject them to penalty when they are observed doing so.
g) Discontinue Sodium Chloride treatment of Ostlund Trail, as it’s ruining our vehicles - and with a 25 MPH speed limit, will no longer be needed.
Thanks for listening.
Respectfully,
Jim Seidl, 14785 Oslund Trail North, Marine, Mn, 55047
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From: Jim Seidl
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 11:22 PM
To: John Pazlar; David Snyder
Subject: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement
Good evening, John and David.
I share the following story to underscore the inherent public safety danger and liability risks of River Grove’s blatant disregard of May Township’s road and traffic safety rules:
On Saturday, June 19, at about 1 PM, I was driving toward River Grove’s entrance on Ostlund Trail North.
As I approached the River Grove entrance, a black car sped out of River Grove’s driveway, at excessive speed, turning right toward Oldfield Road, spewing gravel and dust, spinning its wheels as it turned ahead of me to the right.
I slowed down, from my speed of less than 30 MPH, estimating the speeding car’s driver to be exceeding 45 MPH.
I followed the car toward Oldfield, where I understand River Grove cars are not permitted to drive.
The black car driver continues down Oldfield, at excessive speed, dust and gravel spewing, at which time, a silver SUV is driving toward us on narrow Oldfield.
At the same moment, two pre-teen boys are riding bicycles on the road toward us, converging with the speeding black car ahead of me and the silver oncoming SUV.
I said a prayer.
The River Grove car swerves, miraculously missing the two boys, and speeds on to the highway.
After making sure the two boys were okay, I sped to catch up with the River Grove car, to identify it: License: 403 URB. Make: Kia Optima. Color: Black. Female driver. Male passenger. Child in back seat.
The two boys were just inches away from tragedy on Saturday. The shell-shocked look on their faces motivated my renewed call for action from you.
As David knows, emails like this will be used by personal injury lawyers in the future when a pedestrian is killed by a reckless driver on Ostlund or Oldfield, neither of which are designed or maintained for River Grove traffic, as Mark, Nate, and David know and have written so factually and persuasively.
The time is long past to enforce River Grove’s Road Maintenance Agreement, widen and pave Ostlund, reduce speed limits on both roads, forbid River Grove from using Oldfield, and stop using calcium chloride that’s ruining our vehicles.
Very, very concerned,
Jim
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From: Jim Seidl
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 4:07 PM
To: John Pazlar
Subject: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement
John:
I too am deeply disappointed, and admittedly baffled, that you decided to proceed with the chemical application today, despite my respectful request to postpone for at least a week until Oldfield dries.
I’ve spent the past 60 minutes washing incoming guest’s cars who were shocked by the river of chemicals flowing down and pooling in ruts on Ostlund this afternoon, as the River Grove drivers drove by as they routinely do, exceeding the speed limit, uncaringly today splashing chemicals onto oncoming traffic.
Ted’s photo is helpful in telling the horror story of what we endure with this road. However, if any of you are nearby, I strongly recommend you experience this for yourselves – to confirm what our tax dollars are buying.
In addition to my morning suggestions, as I drove the chemical muck today, I thought it would have been thoughtful of whoever applied the treatment to have left an untreated path, the width of a vehicle, on the side of the road for slow and careful drivers like Ted, Mona, my guests and me, US Postal service deliverers, dog walkers, etc.
That way, those of us who are willing to drive slow, and who prefer to not damage our cars, would find a safe path through the sludge.
Jim
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From: Ted Nesse
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 3:26 PM
To: Jim Seidl; John Pazlar
Subject: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement
Hi John:
The good news is that CaCl2 is half as corrosive as salt, rather than twice as I had thought.
TYPICAL CORROSION VALUES*
Sodium chloride 41-46 mils/year
Calcium chloride 18-21 mils/year
Corrosion-inhibited calcium chloride 4-7 mils/year
*Using the test method defined in the Washington State Department of Transportation deicer specification. Corrosion values reflect a water baseline –i.e., the corrosion of distilled water, taken as 4 mils/year, has been subtracted from all values.
https://www.peterschemical.com/minimizing-corrosion-calcium-chloride/
The bad news is that we had to backtrack 2 miles to get home today:
Ostlund Trail North, 2PM, May 14, 2021
Thanks!
Ted
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From: Jim Seidl
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 10:42 AM
To: John Pazlar
Subject: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement
Good morning, all
Thank you for listening, John.
However, the binary choice you describe is clearly a lose/lose/lose for road users, adjacent home owners, and those of you who field emails and calls from impacted Township residents.
Please reconsider postponing treatment of Ostlund until Oldfield is dry.
If not a month, then at least a week seems a reasonable request.
In addition to Ted’s idea of Ligno as an alternative treatment, and Mark, Nate, John Adams, Ted, and my recommendation for paving Ostlund, please consider:
1) Discontinuing chemical application on Ostlund, as there is only one home on Ostlund east that’s not entirely protected by trees and distance, and that one is still pretty far from the road.
2) Purchasing a container to hold the chemical for later application once Oldfield is dry – and charging River Grove for the cost.
Please also consider that the cost of car repair, ongoing corrosive impact on vehicles, and unknown impact of chemical on animals and children who walk the road and driveways where trails of the chemical sludge emanate, are arguably a much higher risk to public safety and taxpayer expense than dust in the air if the wind is blowing a certain direction and River Grove drivers are exceeding the speed limit as they continue to blatantly do.
Thanks.
Jim
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From: Ted Nesse
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 9:07 AM
To: John Pazlar; Jim Seidl
Subject: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement
Hi John:
I’ll add my complaint to the limited number. I’d be interested in more information about the Ligno and similar road binders that had attracted Bill V’s attention. I have a hard time to think of a more corrosive and destructive road treatment than calcium chloride.
Even the earthmoving contractors I was using were complaining about damage to their company vehicles during the spring 2018 applications. If we’re going to support this level of traffic on a gravel road, it may not be possible to use the cheapest form of dust control going forward.
While the high traffic volume on Ostlund Trail North has caused unusual wash boarding this year (which the binder will help), we appreciate the extra grading attention that road has received this year. Even without addressing the underlying issues of water being unable to leave the road surface, it has been kept workable with the extra attention.
Thanks!
Ted Nesse
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From: John Pazlar
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 8:28 AM
To: Jim Seidl
Subject: Re: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement
Hi Jim, unfortunately, we have already reduced the amount of chemicals we apply per application down to the bare minimum to be at all effective. Also, much of the cost to taxpayers for this sort of thing is the expense of trucking the chemicals out to the township, so delaying treatment of certain roads to next month would be incredibly expensive to the taxpayers of May.
Not many good options here. Over the years we have learned that we either treat the roads for dust, which generates a limited number of calls and complaints, or skip applications which of course generates a lot of dust and creates a huge volume of calls and complaints related to safety and livability, that is, clouds of dust blowing towards people’s homes.
I wish I had a better solution to offer.
John
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From: Jim Seidl
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 10:11 PM
To: John Pazlar; Mark Erichson
Subject: River Grove CUP/Road Maintenance Agreement
Good evening, John and Mark.
I hope you are each doing well, and enjoying our beautiful spring weather.
Mark and John, I regretfully drove Oldfield today on my way to a business meeting in Minneapolis and encountered a roadway thick with magnesium chloride (or whatever chemical is used currently for dust control).
Once again, I observed heavier applications today as I also observed last summer, than in the past, that form pools in the roadway that splash up into the underside of vehicles, no matter how slow we drive – which in my case is less than 20 MPH, and when encountering pools of chemicals less than 10 MPH.
Last summer, guests of mine sadly and embarrassingly incurred thousands of dollars in repair costs for roadway sludge from these pools of chemicals expelled into wheels and brake systems.
Today, I spent 60 minutes between meetings power-washing the underside of my SUV to prevent further damage from the chemical sludge.
If despite the damage caused to our vehicles, and the inconvenience it causes, you believe this application is in the roadway’s best interest, please consider the following:
1) Applying less chemical per application to prevent pooling.
2) Applying treatment to Oldfield one month, and treatment to Ostlund the next month.
I was relieved tonight when I drove back on Ostlund, and it hasn’t yet been treated. By allowing one roadway to thoroughly dry, some of us will be able to use a second roadway for exit and entry.
If Ostlund is scheduled for treatment tomorrow, please intervene and postpone until Oldfield is dry.
Thanks for continuing your efforts to follow Mark and Nate’s recommendations to pave Ostlund.
Respectfully,
Jim
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From: Ted Nesse
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 10:45 AM
To: 'John Pazlar', 'Linda Tibbetts'
Subject: Chloride Experiment on Ostlund Trail North (2nd Treatment Skipped)
Hi John:
Just to share my observations on the experiment with skipping the second chloride application on Ostlund Trail North (reference August 2021 board discussion):
Minimal washboarding increase (this seemed the most likely issue)
Only moderate increase in dust generation (were there any complaints?)
Total relief for vehicle damage associated with chloride application
Presumably, significant environmental improvements were obtained
There may have been some residual late-season benefits from the heavy and damaging early-season application last year, but what I’ve seen supports minimal to no calcium chloride application next year. Let’s discuss this again with the board before that section of road is again treated – I’d like to avoid a repeat of this past spring’s exuberant application which resulted in the road surface being turned into tenacious and corrosive muck.
Thanks!
Ted Nesse
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